>pir 9/10 Pics<

[wgnths]

I hopefully have some good in and out car video as well.........didn't take too many pics, as it was effin hot and i was a sweaty pig.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910079.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910076.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910070.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910069.jpg

[wgnths]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910066.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910064.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910063.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910057.jpg

[wgnths]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910054.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910039.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910033.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910030.jpg

[wgnths]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910026.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910025.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910023.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910021.jpg

[wgnths]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910022.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910015.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910014.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910010.jpg

[wgnths]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910024.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/spoolnv/pir910078.jpg

[phoenixZ33]

http://www.desertimports.com/events/nasa/

http://www.az240sx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25752

http://www.az240sx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25755

[wgnths]

di has some great pics in there!

[Eunos]

Who was driving the new Z06 and why did he have ASP on the side? (that's the class they run in Solo...odd coincidence?)

[wgnths]

he broke the tta record on sunday, with a 1:07. and on saturday, he managed to t-bone another vette and crack his fender up and do some good damage to the other car..........i believe there was some arguing going on afterwards.

[The B]

sweet...
http://www.desertimports.com/events/nasa/images/_mg_8063.jpg

[wgnths]

yeah, he's actually pretty fast though. i see the car at many events........he's running azenis too.

[moxie]

Yeah, while I wouldnt pimp the suzuki its impressive that buddy comes out :)

Thing is turbocharged too...

[wgnths]

or so i thought..........james checked it out and it is not 'charged, but a 2.0 liter. at least it has the 06 subaru nose lol.

[moxie]

Oh, well what a sneaky bastard... pretty quick then....

[phoenixZ33]

Who was driving the new Z06 and why did he have ASP on the side? (that's the class they run in Solo...odd coincidence?)

His name is Terry Free. He's from the SoCal region and this was his first weekend at PIR. He might do Solo2 in CA, I don't know.

[phoenixZ33]

that Suzuki has run 1:10 before at PIR, so it's no joke.

[moxie]

Are you serious?

Thats pretty damn fast...

[wgnths]

no effin way!!? i thought he was in de2? that car doesn't have the power to run 1:10's.

[moxie]

I think Brady was jerking our chains...

[phoenixZ33]

I was just talking about the oval part.

[wgnths]

haha. ha hahahaha

[J0oftheworld]

That isn't the kid that posts on the solo2 board all the time.. about custom this and that, euro spec engines, beating an F1 machine in his zuki??
This girl I used to bang has one.. good ride, -zero- powA.. but nice car for 10k overall. :)

[wgnths]

here's some good pics of the bmw crash, on sunday.
http://www.paulhillmaniii.com/AZ240SX/2006-09-10/Race.Session/index4.html

[Eunos]

Wow, there was enough crush up front to deform the right front wheel! Ouch. Yeah, definitely no more track events in the Miata.

All you guys that regularly do HPDE's should REALLY consider a cage and harness. At a minimum a 4 pt roll/harness bar.

Jason, yeah, that's THE kinkyllama.

[pickinicholas]

Yeah, ouch! What session was that in, what happened?

[The B]

It's a sad day for that M3...

[moxie]

That was during the race...

And you could probably trace the severity of the wreck to the "all go no quit" attitude that you need to have to win races.

Though there is always the outside chance I could wind up in the wall, an accident like this most likely occurs when someone is trying to save a spin.

This is also the reason I try to never go 10/10 on the track. Its just not worth it when I just do it for fun.

[wgnths]

yeah, this would never happen during a de session. it was during the race, side by side, he tried to save the spin i guess(fought it) and instead of tapping one wall, shot across the track into the other.........those guys carry a ton of speed thru that section.

there's no reason, one should have to cage a street car for de events. nobody should be driving 10/10ths. i haven't come across anyone doing so yet, as most people are well aware they are in a street car surrounded by walls. although, beginning of 07 i plan to cage the wagon:)

[Malogus]

yeah, this would never happen during a de session. it was during the race, side by side, he tried to save the spin i guess(fought it) and instead of tapping one wall, shot across the track into the other.........those guys carry a ton of speed thru that section.

there's no reason, one should have to cage a street car for de events. nobody should be driving 10/10ths. i haven't come across anyone doing so yet, as most people are well aware they are in a street car surrounded by walls. although, beginning of 07 i plan to cage the wagon:)

Might sound stupid but what is 10/10ths?

[moxie]

Might sound stupid but what is 10/10ths?

Tis not stupid :)

Basically, you can measure driving performance on a 10 point scale.

So when speaking of how hard you were driving, it is common to mention eight tenths or 8/10ths.


Its just a fancy way of saying how hard you were pushing...
Most of the time for example in a DE session you should most likely be going 7-8/10ths.

Maybe during a time attack you can push it to 9/10ths...

Going a full 10 is flirting with the envelope of control, which is pretty common in a race, at least if you are trying to win.

[phoenixZ33]

You guys are simply fooling yourselves to think that an accident like that will never happen in a street car group. I've totalled a car in HPDE, and even if you drive "solo" around course and stay out of trouble, shit still happens. ie. see that Subaru sliding through coolant video.

It's also wrong to think that no one drives 100% either. Whether we are getting 100% out of the car is a different story, but especially in HPDE4, people are practicing for the time attacks (CRA), doing TT (NASA) or just driving hard for whatever reason. Unless I'm checking out a problem, I drive 100% all the time! It's stupid *for me* to spend $6/gal. on fuel, $800 for tires every two months, money for parts, towing etc and have that kind of money wrapped up, only to drive 80%. I know for a fact that Tage would rather walk down Broadway in his underwear, than drive anything less than 10/10ths on the track. There are many others too.

Saying "well go join the race group if you want to drive 10/10ths" is lame. Not everyone wants to race wheel to wheel. People like time trials, others don't want to put in the extra money it takes to race, others aren't interested, some don't have cars etc. Hell, I drive 100% in DE than I do more in the race group! The two groups are two totally different mentalities.. if you "qualify" for every single lap in the race group, you'll lose, break the car, blow up and so on.

I don't know the BMW guy so I can't say what happened or if he was qualified to be racing a car that fast. From what he did and how he hit, I'd tend to think he was a little under experienced, but I don't know exactly.

Bottom line is this: I heard stories that he hit doing anywhere from 80mph to 60mph. If you drive 75mph through NASCAR 3-4, you're most likely doing 6-8/10ths, if that. Where the problem lies, is that the wall in NASCAR 3-4 is just as hard as the wall in turn 5, so if you drive 80% out there, you can still have an accident of that magnitude. 70mph into a wall hurts just as much.. doesn't matter if you're doing 5/10ths or 10/10ths.

There are people that drive for ten years and never have an accident, then there are others who drive for ten months and crash. In an ideal world, everyone should have a cage, Hans device, fire system and a firesuit.. but that's not realistic for most.

All I can say is protect yourself to whatever level you deem necessary. If you don't take many risks, I don't think it's a big deal.. there are *a lot* of HPDE events in Arizona and it's rare to see a crash. Ever since NASA started doing their download sessions, having group leaders, yellow flag laps in the morning and a few other things, track events have become a lot safer. If you drive like a maniac as I do, a cage might not be a bad idea!

After seeing the Richard Vela's accident, even though it wasn't really related to driving on course, I pretty much decided that I never want to be a part of or see an accident like that if I don't have to.

[J0oftheworld]

Good write up Brady.. Noone is totally safe in any perf driving event.
After running PIR today I'd say it's not for the beginner or someone who doesn't understand what "can happen" when your car reacts to you or the track in a funny manor. I'd personally drive slower than I "could" in a street car!!!

I spent some time today praticing how to slow done on turn 4 @ 95mph.
Made me more confident to drive full out through it and to be beside someone racing on it! Got to love the dip in the entry to the corner!
Keep foot on gas.. trail brake nearly as hard as you'd need to and my car is planted.

Hit turn 1 at 100 the last couple of sessions.. yeahYa baby! :D

[91s13]

After running PIR today I'd say it's not for the beginner or someone who doesn't understand what "can happen" when your car reacts to you or the track in a funny manor. I'd personally drive slower than I "could" in a street car!!!

I wouldn't say that PIR is not for the beginner. That track is perfectly fine for all levels of drivers. What makes it safer is the fact that we have different HPDE levels, good instructors and classroom sessions for any of the beginners.

Also unless you push yourself and your car then you will never understand or know how you or your car will react. Its a known fact. Myself, Brady or anyone else can sit here and tell you all day how to counter, brake, add gas or whatever to bring a car back under control but you will never really know unless you experience it. I have seen it many times that when the car snaps or does something bad the driver pretty much shits him or her self and panics. Once I have seen someone hit a tire barrier 75 yard away doing a simple 35mph accident avoindance manuvure(sp?). This was after demonstrations and classroom sessions on car behavior and how to control it.


I would suggest to anyone new to go out and autocross in the car that you plan to run at the track. It is a good place to learn how the car reacts and how you will react in a extremely safe enviroment. Ask anyone who does it, you will find the limit of you and your car and it is guaranteed that you will spin, understeer, overdrive and all the good things that happen to you doing any kind of performance driving.

As far as the safety equipment aspect that is a matter of personal opinion. I wouldn't sit here and tell anyone that they would need a cage, firesuit, halon which is the first thing most new people ask if it is needed. The answer is no. DE sessions are suppose to be for person that have street cars that want to experience driving fast in a safe and controlled manor. Most people don't want to cage their daily drivers/weekend toy. They just want to experience it. Once they get to DE4 then they will be experienced enough to know if they want a cage and all the gear. DE4 is plain and simple one step down from race group and if someone is uncomfortable about it then they should stay in DE3. There is nothing wrong with it. No one is going to give you shit for it, unless its friendly shit of course.

Anyhow I am going to get off the soapbox now.

[moxie]

You definately make some very good points Brady :)

I guess I should have been a little clearer and settled my thoughts out a little more before I posted.

I guess I choose to not run at the limit all the time when I'm on track.
Maybe that makes we weird, or whatever, I really dont give a shit :)


I drive on the track because I can't drive like that anywhere else, and I bought a quick car for a reason. I fully expect that someone who is going out there at 100% all the time will eventually wind up hitting something and wrecking a car.

And in regards to the run race group if you want to drive 100%, I would say that is only applicable if you are the type of ham fisted moron who puts other people at risk. I don't really care how you drive around the track, but if you put me in danger you are just straight up being a moron. Those people more likely belong at home on the couch instead of being on a track in any run group.

I would still personally chalk a wreck like this up to 100% go go go + lack of experience, just like you said.

I wont be surprised the day someone wads themselves up in DE 3 or 4...

[wgnths]

yeah i never said "it wont happen", i said it shouldn't. i was under the impression, told, the accident occured with other cars around. if it was just him driving beyond his limit, then yes, that can happen at any time. I'm fully aware, there are people in de4 driving 100%, but i venture to say more of them are at the 85-90% mark. Brady runs a caged car,with race tires. I know your car, and obviously your skill, will allow you to drive 100% without making me nervous. Someone in a fast street car, with real street tires isn't running around pir at 100%. And if they are, shit will happen at some point.
This is why i run de3 with nasa. I don't want to be around the tt'ers all day. Cra I'm fine with all the de4 drivers and I always push harder during time attack. Also, it's pretty hard to run for 20min at close to 100%. Brady, and some others i never see out for full sessions.
Regardless, this is why i installed a good seat/harness/better tires and have decided i want a cage.

[J0oftheworld]

Smart man! :)

I see 2 major problems w. 90-100% in DE..
1. Safety
2. You guys all have nice/$$$$ cars!

My miata has cost me ~11k.. it's safe and I don't need it to get to work! :)
Just food for thought.. not smack talk!

Self control is the name of the game out there!!

[speedblind]

I was working turn 5 when that hapenned. Crazy stuff.

I don't think I've been out to more than one or two track days/weekends when at least one car hasn't gone into a wall - seems to be a pretty regular thing, but mostly confined to the higher run groups that are pushing harder. I rarely see accidents in DE1/2 because, as others have said, those guys aren't going (or trying to go) 10/10ths. I've always heard that you shouldn't be making payments on your track car, and I think that's pretty good advice that I continut to diregard.

Seriously though, it isn't too hard to stay as safe as possible in a DE group. Most of the time you can tell the cowboys within the first session, and let them by you so they can overdrive the next corner and spin at their leisure. Otherwise, equipment failure is the other cause of accidents and there's no way to predict that. It's like anything else in life - greater risk = greater reward. As long as you know what *could* happen, and you prepare in advance for the worst, track driving is a great way to spend a day or two.

[wgnths]

i really don't find accidents in de, to be common at all. the past year, i've seen only a couple. and you're right about seeing who those 100%'ers are in the first session or so. i usually grid at the back, as most of the faster guys want to be up front(like brady). then i can sit back and do my thing. paying for the car is probably another big reason. i know brady, jason etc. don't drive their cars, or have any payments on them. i do, but that doesn't mean i cant be out there driving to my comfortable limit, and not having to drive at or near 100%.

[J0oftheworld]

1:16.827 was my best PIR lap.. 11am practice Sunday.
Best race lap was 1:17.358 @ 2:30pm

Finished 11 of 20.. 8th of 14 miatas
decent showing.. :)

[91s13]

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying saying crap doesn't happen and its not a good idea to have some sort of safety equipment. And I'm not attacking anyone.

There are some people that run 100% and are courteous about it. I really only run 100% if I have a clean lap. I don't like to pass people mid corner or dive under them at the entry of a turn. There are people like that and its just better to let them go. When I said to stay in DE3 it was more for NASA. In TT/DE4 most of the people are running 90-100%. I acutally felt more comfortable at the NASA event because almost all of the drivers were pretty good. At CRA it seems that there isn't any real control of who is in what class. Not anyone on here and not to sit here acting like I am some badass F1 driver or something, but there is a very wide range of skill level in DE4 at CRA events. I have had some pretty scary ass closing speeds into corners when I had my KA. Now its even worse that I have an SR. Even just following some people through the corners you can tell they don't belong in 4. That is much more scary in my opinion.

[wgnths]

that said it best. "100% and courteous". Honestly, in Cra i don't see or think many in de4 are driving near 100%. I know Marion never does. Brady, yes, but we all know his skill level and i don't blink twice when he's diving into a corner. I've found in both nasa, and cra, people that probably shouldn't be in 4. I don't seem to have any problems in de4 with cra, and as you said, with nasa and tt, i feel more comfortable in 3, even though they are all very good drivers, some of them(vette and bmw) are quite aggressive.

[moxie]

I like 3 cause it makes me feel fast :)

[91s13]

I like DE2 cause it makes me feel fast :)
fixed just for you. HAHA J/K

[moxie]

Ooooh...

Just you wait... More power is on the way and that solves everything!!

[wgnths]

yes, everything! 1.09's here i come...........








leading to the straightaway.

[phoenixZ33]

Merging 2, 3, and 4 into 2/3 and 3/4 was a bad idea. It's great for daily scheduling because it frees up one slot each day (for drifting etc), but in terms of track quality for the paying drivers, it made everything much worse for many reasons.

Traffic - You all saw the train around FIR West last month. Whenever PIR has sold out in the past, it's the same way. Yeah it's fun to pass people and stuff, but it's not a race group and it'll eventually cause some mishaps. And yeah, sold out groups are great for making money, but i don't see any of that, so I don't care. 75 street cars guys are now in two groups rather than three. (not counting De1)

People who were once in DE2, are now in DE4. DE2 guys merged into DE2/3, then since they're technically a DE3 driver, they jumped into DE3/4 since DE3 drivers can run 3/4. This summer I've seen a handful of drivers that have *never* run CRA, driving in DE4. I don't know if it's egos or what, but a lot of people think it's cool to be in the highest group.. which sucks for the people who are actually going fast and getting held up.

And of course it's hard to see who's in the wrong group or not. Last weekend at NASA, there was a guy in HPDE4 driving out of control, unpredictable and belonged in 2 or 3. He was talked to and moved into 3.. no big deal. With the 3/4 combined, how can you do that? There are different expectations placed on DE3 drivers, so how can you say they're not up to par with DE4 level drivers? Better yet, how is someone who's expecting a DE4 type group, gonna feel about 75% of the drivers being DE3 and not willing/ready/able to pass in corners or keep pace? This isn't a knock for DE3 drivers either and I'm sure plenty of DE3 drivers feel intimidated or frustrated with the crazy DE4 drivers in the group.

[Eunos]

^^^^^The man makes some great points.

Expecially the one about those bastages running in DE4 with no previous CRA events.

[wgnths]

I agree. And this next event, de4 is running alone. it will be de1 de2/3 de4. should work much better. before they merged them, i was perfectly fine running de3. i have nothing to prove. i will be running in 4 this time though, as running with 2/3 would be crazy, and i haven't had any problems keeping pace with most of de4 drivers or passing in corners... and i'm always paying attention to faster drivers behind me. however, if anyone felt i didn't belong, i would love to be told.

[phoenixZ33]

I don't get the "2/3" designation. Why not just call it DE2, or DE3? Or have DE1 (school), DE2 (intermediate) and DE3 (advanced)? I don't see why you'd bother calling it DE2/3, which signifies there are two groups, yet both groups are running at the same time and using the same rules. I still think DE1234 is the best idea.

I hope with having DE4 as a standalone group, that the group leader lays the smack down and removes the people that don't belong. in NASA TT there are guys running 1:22s all the way down to 1:06, yet everyone is courteous and plays by the rules, so it works. I hope it's the same way next weekend.

[moxie]

I think what happens is a lot of people think:

I have a Corvette/Porsche/M3/EVO etc. so I should be in DE4.

This isnt really the case. DE level is more a measure of skill, comfort level, and controlled aggression IMO. Like Brady said, you can have a 16 second split if everyone running knows what they are doing. It only becomes a problem when you have the one jackass who cant drive.

Why it has to be called DE2/3 is beyond me... I have been wondering why we dont just make it 3 groups for a long time.

[wgnths]

i think 3 groups is good, but they need to be more strict on who is moving up.

[speedblind]

As long as the 1 and 4 groups are running by themselves, and there's some sort of intermediate group for us wussies that still make car payments, I think it will work. Being in a 1/2 group sucks. I signed up for 2 when I first got the S2000 because I was learning the car and didn't want to hold anyone up. I ended up on a series of 20-minute parade laps and didn't get enough open track to feel the car out, so it was a waste of a day and 120 bucks.

I would hesitate to jump into a 3/4 group, as I'd be holding up people with 1. more power, 2. better tires/brakes and (most importantly) 3. higher degree of comfort with their cars. Based on the minimal track time I've had in this car, I'd say a 2/3 or 3 group would be exactly what I'm looking for. Like wgn said - grid last, or come to grid after the session's started, and get some open road in front of me.