HPDE + Harness'

[wgnths]

I heard something about the new rule for '07 being: Harness' in street cars must be 2yrs old or newer. Passenger harness' can be older, or if you run a harness and still have your factory seatbelt, the harness can be older(still must follow the build date on the harness belt, and no older than 5-7yrs).
Another reminder, all harness' must be at least 5pt. to be allowed on track.

[pickinicholas]

good thing mine are new 5pt

[J0oftheworld]

This should make the "hpde" crowd a little more serious about the sport.
Safety is never a bad thing.. and if you can't see that in mandatory belts than I would'nt want to be on track w/ ya! :)
I take it this is a CRA/NASA thing?
Good stuff..

[phoenixZ33]

Well that doesn't make sense.. so we're not going by the rating and date on the harness, even though there are FIA and SFI industry standards? An SFI harness is only good for two years (for racing), from the date shown on the tag. FIA harnesses are good for 5. Or does this new rule override something sanctioned by the FIA?

This rule should be dictated by when the harness expires, not when someone thinks their two years is up. All they have to say is "your harness must not be expired", nothing more.

[wgnths]

yeah from what i understood, the 5yr harness will still only be allowed for 2yrs of use, in the drivers seat. didn't make sense to me either, and seems like an unnecessary expense.

[phoenixZ33]

bullshit. they can't take an FIA 5-year legal harness and all of a sudden just declare it's only good for two years.

who's idea is this anyways, or where did you hear it?

[wgnths]

i heard it from boles, he said they werent going by the standard years for use. something nasa was doing i guess. see if you can find anything in the nasa rules maybe?

[phoenixZ33]

It sounds like the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. So what's next, are they going to randomly start declaring helmets are only good for 2 years instead of 10?

[wgnths]

i don't know, it didn't make sense to me. we should get him to clear things up.

[Valhakar]

If you want to address this on the NASA level to make sure it is not a club specific rule, check out the race craft section of NASAFORUMS.com. http://www.nasaforums.com/viewforum.php?f=39


Here is the curent rule:

"11.4.8 Seatbelts and Harnesses.
The seatbelts used should be in good condition. No damage may be present on the seatbelts and they must be factory configuration. Any harness or any restraint system, other than factory stock, shall conform to CCR section #15.5, in all respects except for the expiration regulations. Harnesses that are expired for racing may be used providing that they are in at least very good condition. Lap belts used without any shoulder restraints are not permitted."

If they switch to the above rumor, then there will be hell to pay. Forget about SFI/FIA standards beng ignored. It means that every HPDE driver will have to have at least a bolt in cage to run a 5 point. A change like this would force people to form their own clubs to get away from the SCCA like elitest track crowd.

[wgnths]

what does a cage have to do with it? all that was mentioned was they were shortening the length of time, a harness would be good for. i'm not sure if it's a region only thing or what. i wouldn't waste my time going on the national nasa forum for answers, as i haven't seen any formal change to the rules thus far. and i may have the info i was told, wrong...if your street car runs the stock belt, you can have an older harness. there's no need for any cage.

[Valhakar]

Anyone that runs a 5 point harness w/o a cage is asking for trouble, hence the cage mention. In a roll over, your neck becomes the B pillar.

[wgnths]

almost all of us out there, run 5pt's with a harness bar. if you're worried about a roll-over in de, then stay away from me! the harness bar with bucket seat is a completely safe setup for de driving. i could never go back to a stock seat and 3pt, and feel comfortable. hell, should we all be wearing hans devices too?

[speedblind]

Quick point of clarification: is this stating that IF you have a harness it must be 2 yrs. old or newer, or is it stating that ALL DE cars must have harnesses?

[moxie]

If you have a harness it must be newer than 2 years...

Which seems sorta wacked to me.

Also, I believe you must have a harness with a non stock seat.

[Valhakar]

almost all of us out there, run 5pt's with a harness bar. if you're worried about a roll-over in de, then stay away from me! the harness bar with bucket seat is a completely safe setup for de driving. i could never go back to a stock seat and 3pt, and feel comfortable. hell, should we all be wearing hans devices too?

Do you seriously think you are above the laws of probability and you will never have a a mechanical failure? I have rolled twice since 1988. Once was driver error on a dirt course, the other was a broken control arm on dirt as well. I don't give a darn who you are. You track, you will crash, PERIOD. We exercise caution to postpone inccidents as long as possible.


July 2007 you will have to have HANS for all Race groups and TT (TT is iffy), last I heard. They could back off the HANS device yet again, but it will become a rule soon enough. You have no say in this, I have no say in this, the people that underwrite the insurance policies for these events have the ultimate say in this. ;) I see HANS required in the near future for any DE session w/o an instructor in the seat next to you. I support this, as it will require more isntructor training for the casual driver and much needed safety equipment for the less than casual driver.

A wall at 120 MPH is the same in any car. Just because you see yourself in an HPDE, doesn't mean the laws of physics give a Sh**.


IMPORTANT NOTICE: Use of a head and neck restraint system or device, meeting SFI
specifications, may become mandatory for all road race series as of July 1, 2007.

15.17.9 Head Restraint – Side Impact
As of July 1st, 2007 it is required that all drivers employ a right-side impact head restraint
system. A seat with a “bolster” to keep the head from moving to the right side in an
impact is acceptable. A side-impact head-net restraint system, such as the Racetech
RTViperRP is also acceptable. Note- all side-impact head-net restraint systems must
have a quick-release mechanism to aid the driver in case of a necessary egress via the
passenger side.

Instead of asking questions to people that may or may not have the right answer, use the official NASA CCR (Club Code and Regulations). When building or buying it should be your BIBLE. ;)

http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/ccr.pdf


15.5 Driver restraint system

10. All belts should meet at least one of the following:
A) SFI Specification 16.1 or 16.5 (for use with HANS only) and shall bear a
dated label of no more than two (2) years old. At least one date label is
required on belt sets.
B) A restraint system meeting FIA spec #8853/1985, 8853/98, or D-###.T/98,
including amendment 1/92 may be used. FIA certified belts have a label that
shows an expiration date. The belts cannot be used past December 31st of
the year shown on the label. At least one date label is required on belt sets.

Hence the confusion. The 2 year date is for use with HANS devices.

[moxie]

While NASA or CRA may in the future decide to enact a HANS requirement for Time Trials in the future I don't see any specific reference to the time trial series in any of the quotes that you posted.

Road Race series does not necessarily include Time Trials.


Incidentally I would always stand against a HANS device requirement for HPDE drivers. Its utterly ridiculous, and just a trademark of our over litigious society. Pretty soon AutoX will start requiring the same thing, cause "you never know."

And while you state the fact that the laws of physics don't care if I am in DE, why the hell do they suddenly care that there is a an instructor in my car with me?

Changing safety equipment requirements based on the presence of a questionably qualified instructor has to be the most asinine suggestion I have heard since I have been involved in motorsports.

[wgnths]

What does you rolling over, on a dirt road have to do with any of this? Guess what, i've been in a rollover accident too...and? Do you think we drive around town strapped into our 6pt harness'? You are on the wrong forum if you think we are that idiotic. We all have oem belts for use, other than at the track. Are you saying a 6pt harness, race seat and harness bar is unsafe for hpde use? Next your gonna tell me that we shouldn't be changing out our steering wheels for non-airbag ones, right? Because lord knows, we never had cars without them, or accidents and survived.

And your "2 year old with hans" paragraph is something we already know. If you were paying attention, this was about this region supposedly going above that "common" law, and saying "all harness'(unless you also have the oem belt) must be 2 yrs old or newer". Thats what we're trying to figure out, as it was brought up. I don't see how they could go and change something like that. At this point, it's just discussion amongst us, as no formal change has been made that I can see. And I'm not worried about it, at this point other than it was brought up by Boles and I didn't quite understand it.

Lastly, if anyone was insane enough(as most lawyers are) to mandate hans for de, well you'll see cra and nasa fold up. Hpde is suppose to be fun, it's suppose to be grass roots, it's suppose to allow a "safe" environment for joe schmoe to take his street car on a track where he will not endanger innocents on the streets...and it's suppose to be affordable.

Hell, there's already talk of making people have to attend both days for hpde, or punishing those "one dayers" by overcharging them. That will also seriously take away from the basis of hpde. I know I can't afford to run 26 track days a year, and keep my car maintained.

[kev]

there's already talk of making people have to attend both days for hpde, or punishing those "one dayers" by overcharging them.

That's weaksauce! IMHO, a policy like that will hurt more than help any organization.

[Valhakar]

Well to be honest, I am married to a lawyer. Her opinion is this. NASA/SCCA or any other High performace Driving school will soon have to require HANS or SFI compliant restraints. You have to wear a helmet, same thing applies here. Now the way to offset the cost is to RENT SFI compliant devices just like they loan out helmets.

A good helmet costs roughly 250-500 dollars. SFI compliant devices are not that much more expensive.

As for the single day premium, be glad it is offered at all. NASA Mid-Atlantic does not offer single day prices at all. You spend $300-350 for both days or you stay home.

[wgnths]

Um, you do realize that hans devices will not work with every helmet or seat, right? What is the point of wearing a hans if your in a stock seat and oem 3pt belt? That is the most ridiculous thing i've read here yet. Thank those lawyers for trying to destroy more "legal" fun.

[wgnths]

This thread is done for now, as it's nothing buy speculation and hersay at this point:)